Israeli Jews and Palestinians only had to be divided because the Israeli Jews were unrestrained in their wish for the whole thing, and their unsupported rage at Palestinians. Palestinians needed protection, and that protection would/should have come from their own state(s). Israeli Jews needed protection, too, but they got that from havi…
Israeli Jews and Palestinians only had to be divided because the Israeli Jews were unrestrained in their wish for the whole thing, and their unsupported rage at Palestinians. Palestinians needed protection, and that protection would/should have come from their own state(s). Israeli Jews needed protection, too, but they got that from having Israel. Even Hamas leaders will tell you they have nothing against Jews or Israelis. Their complaint is against people who mistreat them and take their land.
Reparations are certainly, in theory due, but what kind and to whom? There's nothing Israelis or Biden can do to bring back to life the 40K (estimated as high as 186K) Palestinians the Israelis have annihilated, plus the aid workers, and the journalists, and the Palestinians who are being starved and deprived of health care, and will die. Certainly, all of their destroyed buildings and infrastructure should be rebuilt for them, settlements removed NOW, and they should be left alone and treated better. The Israelis clearly aren't motivated to do anything for the Palestinians, so who's going to make them?
Yes, I'm a citizen of the US. If you're talking about reparations here, to African Americans, I don't favor them. First, there's not enough money in the world we could give them to compensate them for what they and especially their forebears were put through. Second, if you're familiar with people like lottery winners and professional athletes, then you know that people who do not have a system for handling sudden large amounts of money generally lose it and wind up bankrupt, through lack of perspective, careless generosity to the wrong people, and "investments" in businesses they can't manage or which are scams. The best thing to do is make sure we're well educated about the problem, and stop mistreating them, which we haven't done.
I meant to both African Americans as well as Indigenous Americans. And yes monetary reparations never function as a perfect solution to what was lost, be it land, time, lives, etc whether its here or in Palestine. But its the only means by which our political systems can provide. I think a holistic approach can achieve good results (money along with social systems that can create a path to enduring growth and reestablishment of communities).
Finally, I want to push back one more time on the Jewish people of Palestine "wanting the whole thing". Political zionism is very different from what the Jewish refugees to Palestine, in part or as a whole, want. If you look at the history, plenty of European Jews that emigrated to Palestine were living along side the Palestinians in peace. Political Zionism brought the money and armaments along with the propaganda that motivated the worst among them to begin forcefully displacing and stealing land. This history is the evidence upon which we can support a one-state solution. People are not inherently bad. That is something I truly believe and have seen over and over again. People are often times motivated by the most powerful among us to act badly, to act based on falsehoods and needless fear. This is why most Israeli citizens support the war. I don' think they're mostly bad. I think that when your leaders constantly tell you that everyone is out to get you, that they want to kill you and level your country, you eventually start to believe the lies. People are manipulated by the powerful. In Israel, America, and most everywhere else.
Very interesting comment, SAM. First of all, I'm sure you can see the uselessness of giving money to people who don't know how to handle it (millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions, tens of billions, trillions, etc), and will lose it. You must know enough about lottery winners and professional athletes, even elite ones with every benefit, who lose it all. Then, they're back where they started, and are resentful. Addressing the dysfunctional underlying social systems is the only thing that will help.
I see better your distinction between "Political Zionism" and the Zionism that comes from having pride of place. And I think you're right. Yes, without question, before the imperialized/colonizing version of Zionism, Jews and many Arabs had no problem with each other. Of course, it should be remembered that after WWI, the Middle East was artificially carved up in ways it wasn't before, and this disruption may have contributed to Arab tensions/resentment toward Jews, who had nothing to do with it. (Maybe they believed the Nazi's explanation about who was at fault for all problems.) You do know that Hamas was created in part by Netanyahu, whose motives will always be suspect, so lacking Israeli misbehavior, there was no cause for tension, and certainly not for aggression. But we must recall that throughout the relatively short life of Israel, Israelis have made aggressive and rapacious incursions into Palestinian territory, so that shit was going to hit the fan at some point. No Israeli government ever intervened to stop it.
I'm missing something. What's the "one state?" If you read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged," you might have been left with the idea that everyone lives together peacefully, in part because everyone has and knows his or her place. Is that what you think one state is? If it is, you might in theory be right, as long as the Israelis aren't aggressive, greedy, and rapacious. But they are. Even in this country, it's almost a joke how relentless are Israelis who want to sell something, and won't take no for an answer.
You can provide a list of the people, and groups, and countries, that aren't inherently bad. The availability/weakness/passivity to be motivated by the most powerful among us (or people, like Donnie, who pretend to be, and are followed) is its own kind of badness. The imagined instinct not to be bad does not overpower that willingness to be a sucker, and to believe the unbelievable. Receptiveness to falsehoods (not infrequently patent) and fear is a kind of badness. I read an interesting article a day or two ago about the "swing" states in which people polled thought their local economies were improved, but they were willing to believe that the national economy, which is not visible to them, but about which they're told, is deteriorating. Maybe you'll say that's stupidity, not badness. We can split that hair. When someone tells you to believe what they tell you, and not "your lying eyes," you have a choice.
If you haven't watched Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," it is about precisely what you say: Americans' willingness to feel afraid because of the people who tell them everyone is out to get them. As I said, you can argue whether this availability is bad or stupid. Do you know that guns are the major cause of death in minors of all ages and in suicides? People could "know" that. But they're willing to believe instead that they're under constant threat.
Israeli Jews and Palestinians only had to be divided because the Israeli Jews were unrestrained in their wish for the whole thing, and their unsupported rage at Palestinians. Palestinians needed protection, and that protection would/should have come from their own state(s). Israeli Jews needed protection, too, but they got that from having Israel. Even Hamas leaders will tell you they have nothing against Jews or Israelis. Their complaint is against people who mistreat them and take their land.
Reparations are certainly, in theory due, but what kind and to whom? There's nothing Israelis or Biden can do to bring back to life the 40K (estimated as high as 186K) Palestinians the Israelis have annihilated, plus the aid workers, and the journalists, and the Palestinians who are being starved and deprived of health care, and will die. Certainly, all of their destroyed buildings and infrastructure should be rebuilt for them, settlements removed NOW, and they should be left alone and treated better. The Israelis clearly aren't motivated to do anything for the Palestinians, so who's going to make them?
Yes, I'm a citizen of the US. If you're talking about reparations here, to African Americans, I don't favor them. First, there's not enough money in the world we could give them to compensate them for what they and especially their forebears were put through. Second, if you're familiar with people like lottery winners and professional athletes, then you know that people who do not have a system for handling sudden large amounts of money generally lose it and wind up bankrupt, through lack of perspective, careless generosity to the wrong people, and "investments" in businesses they can't manage or which are scams. The best thing to do is make sure we're well educated about the problem, and stop mistreating them, which we haven't done.
I meant to both African Americans as well as Indigenous Americans. And yes monetary reparations never function as a perfect solution to what was lost, be it land, time, lives, etc whether its here or in Palestine. But its the only means by which our political systems can provide. I think a holistic approach can achieve good results (money along with social systems that can create a path to enduring growth and reestablishment of communities).
Finally, I want to push back one more time on the Jewish people of Palestine "wanting the whole thing". Political zionism is very different from what the Jewish refugees to Palestine, in part or as a whole, want. If you look at the history, plenty of European Jews that emigrated to Palestine were living along side the Palestinians in peace. Political Zionism brought the money and armaments along with the propaganda that motivated the worst among them to begin forcefully displacing and stealing land. This history is the evidence upon which we can support a one-state solution. People are not inherently bad. That is something I truly believe and have seen over and over again. People are often times motivated by the most powerful among us to act badly, to act based on falsehoods and needless fear. This is why most Israeli citizens support the war. I don' think they're mostly bad. I think that when your leaders constantly tell you that everyone is out to get you, that they want to kill you and level your country, you eventually start to believe the lies. People are manipulated by the powerful. In Israel, America, and most everywhere else.
Very interesting comment, SAM. First of all, I'm sure you can see the uselessness of giving money to people who don't know how to handle it (millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions, tens of billions, trillions, etc), and will lose it. You must know enough about lottery winners and professional athletes, even elite ones with every benefit, who lose it all. Then, they're back where they started, and are resentful. Addressing the dysfunctional underlying social systems is the only thing that will help.
I see better your distinction between "Political Zionism" and the Zionism that comes from having pride of place. And I think you're right. Yes, without question, before the imperialized/colonizing version of Zionism, Jews and many Arabs had no problem with each other. Of course, it should be remembered that after WWI, the Middle East was artificially carved up in ways it wasn't before, and this disruption may have contributed to Arab tensions/resentment toward Jews, who had nothing to do with it. (Maybe they believed the Nazi's explanation about who was at fault for all problems.) You do know that Hamas was created in part by Netanyahu, whose motives will always be suspect, so lacking Israeli misbehavior, there was no cause for tension, and certainly not for aggression. But we must recall that throughout the relatively short life of Israel, Israelis have made aggressive and rapacious incursions into Palestinian territory, so that shit was going to hit the fan at some point. No Israeli government ever intervened to stop it.
I'm missing something. What's the "one state?" If you read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged," you might have been left with the idea that everyone lives together peacefully, in part because everyone has and knows his or her place. Is that what you think one state is? If it is, you might in theory be right, as long as the Israelis aren't aggressive, greedy, and rapacious. But they are. Even in this country, it's almost a joke how relentless are Israelis who want to sell something, and won't take no for an answer.
You can provide a list of the people, and groups, and countries, that aren't inherently bad. The availability/weakness/passivity to be motivated by the most powerful among us (or people, like Donnie, who pretend to be, and are followed) is its own kind of badness. The imagined instinct not to be bad does not overpower that willingness to be a sucker, and to believe the unbelievable. Receptiveness to falsehoods (not infrequently patent) and fear is a kind of badness. I read an interesting article a day or two ago about the "swing" states in which people polled thought their local economies were improved, but they were willing to believe that the national economy, which is not visible to them, but about which they're told, is deteriorating. Maybe you'll say that's stupidity, not badness. We can split that hair. When someone tells you to believe what they tell you, and not "your lying eyes," you have a choice.
If you haven't watched Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," it is about precisely what you say: Americans' willingness to feel afraid because of the people who tell them everyone is out to get them. As I said, you can argue whether this availability is bad or stupid. Do you know that guns are the major cause of death in minors of all ages and in suicides? People could "know" that. But they're willing to believe instead that they're under constant threat.